The highest elevations are reached in section 6 where Lone Frank Pass reaches nearly 7,000 feet. We conquer the 4th , 5th , and 6th sections of the Washington Backcountry Discovery Route (BDR). Be sure to stop in and grab some goodies in addition to a gas tank fill-up. Use good-quality off-road tires, such as TKC-80 or Dunlop-606 knobby tires. Blending physical and digital design, we craft products with lasting relevance for influential brands. What is the highest elevation on the WABDR? Take it all in, and let the scenery sink into your memory, as taking photos near the crossing is prohibited. Connect your Garmin to your PC or Mac via USB cable, Either: From $3999. An intermediate skillset is required. Lodging (campsites and rooms for rent), Gas Station/Convenience Store, and Mountain Momma’s Home Cooking Restaurant on the same grounds. Log in or sign up for Facebook to connect wi Lockhart Basin in UT is the hardest section of all the BDR’s. I have just taken an intro level training course and I ride a 1200GSA? In recent years, several third party smartphone apps have been introduced designed specifically for backcountry navigation. At the end of the day, this is supposed to be fun. Google Maps is not well suited for this purpose as it’s not designed to work with GPS tracks and waypoints that we use for the BDR routes. Limited accommodations are also available in Conconully. The side trip out to Lion Rock is a must. Map not loading? Stop above the hill to enjoy the distant views. Note: flying into Portland Airport could be cheaper but would require you to find a way to get to Sisters, OR (3.5 hrs away . Garmin models that work best for this application are: Zumo 665/660, GPSMap 60, 62, 76, 78 and 276. The difficulty of a route can change from day to day depending on weather, changes in the road conditions and road damage caused by a variety of forces including wind, storms, flooding, snow, logging, forest fires and more. Riding with skilled riders is an excellent way to become a better rider. The roads include dirt, gravel, and pavement surfaces and may include rocks, ruts, sand, mud and snow depending on time of year and conditions . The path goes up past Thrapp Mountain and Woody Mountain before descending again into to Highway 20. Chopaka Lake is popular with fishermen (fly-fishing only). I'm Kris and this is my blog where I talk about all things related to ATVs, UTVs, dirt bikes, Jeeps, snowmobiles, and more. CAT 2017. cobat20. Ardenvoir is a small town with a cafe, gas stations, and supplies. The owner, Sam Martin offers a 10% discount if you mention the BDR. It's where we share noteworthy, weekend-length rides; encouraging the exploration and establishment of public BDR-level-of-difficulty rides all across the West. Fill in contact information, agree to the terms, hit submit. In summary, take baby steps and work up to doing a BDR. Any helmet will protect your head, but we suggest looking for something that is DOT rated. It is essential to develop your skills in relation to standing on the bike. Join Facebook to connect with Washington Bdr and others you may know. Nestled on five wooded acres catering to those seeking relaxation surrounded by natural beauty and spectacular views of the Columbia River Gorge. It is strongly recommended to have a water filtration solution with you at all times in the backcountry. Some pix of the paths involved so you can better decide for yourself. The South to North route winds through the Cascade Mountains and some arid landscapes in the foothills of Eastern Washington. The National Forest maps are a good resource for finding suitable creeks and springs. Make sure to download the latest version of the tracks for the route you are looking to complete. Our team members used either Continental TKC 80 or Dunlop 606 tires when we rode the route. https://ridebdr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/logo-CentralPowersports_transparent.png, https://ridebdr.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/BDR-Logo.png, https://ridebdr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/logo-Wenatchee_transparent.png. -Despite the tragic amount of wild fire activity we had around the Pacific Northwest in late 2020, Brant Hill from Alabama was still able to make use of our Oregon U.S. motorcycle rental fleet on an Africa Twin Adventure Sports for a couple of . Klamath-falls-or.oregon-bd.com. You may find that there are more options than we have listed, but these are key places you may find useful. Cleansing pads with lidocaine: For cleaning. Consider other bike protection parts like crash bars, and upgrades like auxiliary lights, windscreen, heated grips, steering damper, aftermarket suspension and others. Plan Your Tomorrow. Yes, there are several gates on the route. STORE. What is the difference between a Waypoint, Track, and a Route? The route can be completed in 4-6 days depending on pace, and is also accessible by four-wheel drive vehicles, as the entire route is at least double-track. Click on the different category headings to find out more. We depend on the BDR community to inform us about route and road conditions, so if you encounter any road closures or severe conditions that are worth reporting, please contact us with the information. The latest updates will always be on our Route Updates section on our website. This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. This is the second part of our epic overloading trip on the Washington BDR through to Canada. This 103-mile (166 km) route ascends north from Lake Chelan past the Echo Valley Ski Area toward the 5,867-foot Cooper Mountain. Here is the list: CABDR-South, NEBDR, AZBDR, UTBDR, COBDR, NVBDR, WABDR, NMBDR, IDBDR, MABDR. On route, you will discover stories behind historical sites and the local communities along the western slopes of the Cascade Mountains. We also regularly update our route specific Facebook groups and our Instagram account (@ridebdr) to reflect the most up to date information we are aware of. LEARN MORE. September 4th, 2021 through September 9th. September 25th, 2021 - October 1st. Look for evidence of the old mining operations on the hill above Loup Loup Canyon on this optional side trip. You can also check out the Steliko Lookout Tower right above the town. The descent continues past Old Durr Road until a short paved portion leads you over the Umtanum Ridge. Because these cookies are strictly necessary to deliver the website, refuseing them will have impact how our site functions. Having recently published the North East route, the BDR is heading back West with the announcement of the Wyoming Discovery Route (WYBDR) now under development. Don’t miss these 360 degree views. Experts would do fine with any section of the 593-mile road. But truth be told, it would not have come to life without the Jeep Scrambler. Plan on doing this route in 4-6 days depending on how fast you want to travel and how early you want to roll out of camp. Where can I get the latest updates on the route or road and weather conditions? If you’re looking into riding a BDR we assume you already have your motorcycle endorsement and know the basics of riding a bike. ROUTE UPDATES. The route goes northeast over Triangle Pass and Trail Peak on gravel and dirt roads. There are some different options for backcountry navigation using a smartphone. Do I need permits to travel on the BDR’s? However, it doesn’t matter if you plan to cover only a portion of the entire track or decide to have a full-on six-day tour and the lush forests of the Cascade Mountains. This site is a resource for adventure riders. There you can enjoy other scenic views and rugged pathways. This 77 mi (124 km) section crosses Interstate 90 at Exit 106 on Ellensburg’s outskirts. James said that using go-rounds turns the route into one of medium difficulty. They can be purchased for a small fee at Butler Maps or Touratech-USA. This site uses cookies. The South to North route winds through the Cascade Mountains and some arid landscapes in the foothills of Eastern Washington. Facebook. Veterans advocate Section 2 for 4×4 vehicle owners who want to get the most out of the WABDR. We do not officially rate roads or routes because the difficulty can change from day to day depending on weather, changes in road conditions, and road damage caused by a variety of forces including wind, storms, flooding, snow, logging, forest fires and more. A BDR is something a person should build up to and it shouldn’t be their first overnight trip on their ADV bike. Unplanned events can occur and having paper/synthetic maps of the area can be a life saver. Otherwise you will be prompted again when opening a new browser window or new a tab. You’ve made it! Download offline maps for the area you intend to ride. Ride out to the summit to enjoy the views. Tracks are a static line on a map – as your GPS position moves the idea is to follow this line. Any GPS unit capable of displaying 10 track logs with a minimum of 500 points each is suitable for use on the WABDR. Adams. Washington BDR. It involves a distance of 66 mi/107 km. Some cons of soft luggage is that it is more difficult to secure your belongings when you’re away from your bike, more time consuming to pack up every morning, and sometimes requires more effort to slim down your load so that everything fits properly. This . Choosing a camp location close to a water source is a good idea. Read about the historic mining town of Ruby at the bottom of the steep Ruby Grade. By continuing to browse the site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. The WABDR route is designed to be ridden on adventure and dual-sport motorcycles, as well as driven in 4×4 vehicles. Facebook gives people the power. Terrain: Rock, Sand, Water Crossings, Asphalt . If you can, do some test rides to see what feels right for you. Roberts Homes Ltd | 9 followers on LinkedIn. A BDR is something a person should build up to and it shouldn’t be their first overnight trip on their ADV bike. However, some routes go through areas that require a permit. Tiny Ardenvoir has an important gas station, cafe, and store. Most BDR routes have a number of gates along the route used by ranchers. Many of the roads along the Washington Backcountry Discovery Route are in remote areas and reach high elevation where road maintenance is minimal. Try to find this hidden spot that has views and makes a cool camping area. The average BDR Director salary in Tacoma, Washington is $198,863 as of June 28, 2021, but the salary range typically falls between $173,503 and $224,143. This is a side trip from the WABDR. If a person’s skills are not advanced level, they may consider taking a smaller bike or choosing the easier options when possible. Because it is double-track, the WABDR lures in dual-sport bikers. Although, MA, ID, WA, NM, and CO are less difficult than UT, AZ, CA, NV and NE, they all contain difficult sections. The route from Lion Rock to Beehive Reservoir is stunning as it is rugged and remote. This is the official southern end of the WABDR. This park has shade trees for taking a siesta and docks for jumping off. See rural America, and get a taste of the trails that shaped early American history. After that short highway section, you are back on dirt roads heading to beautiful Loup Loup Canyon Road. Antiseptic towlettes: For cleaning small wounds. What is the general distance between gas stops? Colorado 1000 3.0 2016. This way, you are fresh, and a few hours of road riding to start is a great way to get you warmed up for your expedition. Email service@southsoundbmw.com or call (800) 303-1838 for more information. There are also sections that have steep grades combined with rough surfaces. Butler Motorcycle Maps Washington BDR MapButler Maps lay out the best paved motorcycle rides in the country. 11/14/16: Downhill Slide: Had a couple good days and then began to deteriorate including more pain and much difficulty breathing.Headed back to the hospital to discover that I now had a hemothorax or bleeding in the lung/pleural cavity. Copper Canyon via Baja . Venture off the beaten path with the Backcountry Discovery Routes (BDR) Collection. The difficulty experienced by an individual also depends on their off-road skills, level of fitness, bike size and amount of weight carried on the bike. Leader Lake is a slight side trip with a campground and is a good place to cool off in the water. Without this fuel the WABDR would be much different. They usually don’t have a SAM splint, so pick one of those up along with a couple ace bandages. We suggest looking at the Butler Map and take the optional easier routes to avoid the difficult sections. | Roberts Homes Ltd is a leading construction company operating throughout North Wales and the North West of England. Thoroughly exploring the Cascade Mountains, this 575-mile route has stunning views of the massive volcanoes from the dense forest in the southern part, and the open arid pine forests of the central part of the route, showcasing the diversity of Washington. I got a referral, contracted by a great recruiter that really gave me the feeling that the company wanted me to succeed. A big part of the BDR experience is camping off your bike, however the routes are designed in a way that you can find lodging on the way if you wish. Rimrock Lake Resort, Naches, WA (Section 2). (Under the ‘folder’ icon at the top right). We also use different external services like Google Webfonts, Google Maps, and external Video providers. Email or Phone: Password: Forgot account? Some great spots to visit are Babyshoe Ridge Viewpoint, Horseshoe Lake, Cash Prairie Camp, Winthrop, and Leader Lake. A twisty paved backroad ascends up to the top of Table Mountain from the Reecer Creek gulch below. Boardman-or.oregon-bd.com. Welcome to Off-Roading Pro. Some of the more popular apps for BDR navigation are: Make sure to download topographical maps of the entire area you wish to ride within the navigation app of your choice. The US Border Office phone number is (509) 476-2125. Paper and pencil: For recording medical data such as body temperature, pulse, time and date of symptoms, injuries, medicines administered, etc. LEARN MORE. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) has an INTERACTIVE MAP  which shows dispersed camping locations. Furthermore, avoid riding alone. These cookies are strictly necessary to provide you with services available through our website and to use some of its features. They have outdoor and indoor seating, are family friendly, dogs welcome, and they serve delicious pizza, salads, sandwiches and, of course, beer! Most people average 150 miles a day on a backcountry motorcycle trip. Moleskin: Prevents blisters. Join the Facebook group for the route you are planning to ride, to read ride reports, ask questions, and participate in open discussions. How do I download tracks into my BMW Nav IV or other older GPS? You can buy a good first aid kit at one of the outdoor stores online or Touratech-USA. Cascade View is ideally located in the booming Cascade Park area of east Vancouver.The proximity to 164th Ave . Since 2010, the adventure motorcycling non-profit Backcountry Discovery Routes (BDR) organization has created several trans-state routes for dual sport and adventure motorcycle travel. How do I get turn-by-turn directions using the BDR tracks? Asking your preferred motel chain. Pepto Bismol or antiacid tablets: For relief from general diarrhea, abdominal upset. Which BDR is Easiest? It could be a two day ride depending on how fast you travel. Discover (and save) your own Pins on Pinterest. Click to enable/disable essential site cookies. By now you’ve earned a rest and should take a dip in Lake Chelan. Most repackaged kits include accident report forms. It’s usually cool at this point jutting out from a long steep cliff. Kirkland WA home for sale: 1511082 6211 Lake Washington Boulevard NE 201 98033 $4,988,800. Difficulty: On a scale of 1-10 . Mount DOT approved knobby tires with an aggressive tread pattern. How can I find dispersed camping along the routes? Winthrop is a small town with western facades and several food and lodging options. The route then descends into the Mission Creek Valley to the town of Cashmere, which has gas stations, groceries, restaurants, and hotels. Colorado Rocky Mountain Jeep Safari 20. What’s the best way to navigate the BDR routes? It is the longest of the six checkpoints of the Washington Backcountry Discovery Route (and the most difficult, according to riders), stretching 123/195 km. California Koo. Itinerary. Some bikes will come with a skid plate, but most of the time they aren’t adequate. Slide Ridge has many viewpoints of Lake Chelan and beyond. Some riders might decide to take detours along the route or need to stop to make a repair. Pick the solution that has the most amount of features you desire. Washington Bdr Companies. Click on the GPS Tracks, Download GPS Tracks button. You'll teach and reinforce key behaviors, skills, and . The Bangladesh Rifles revolt was a mutiny staged on 25 and 26 February 2009 in Dhaka by a section of the Bangladesh Rifles (BDR), a paramilitary force mainly tasked with guarding the borders of Bangladesh.The rebelling BDR soldiers took over the BDR headquarters in Pilkhana, killing BDR director-general Shakil Ahmed along with 56 other army officers and 17 civilians. Washington, D.C. April 1, 2019 -WEConnect International, along with support from the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce (NGLCC), Disability:IN and the US Pan Asian American Chamber of Commerce (USPAACC), announced the 2019 Top 10 Global Champions for Supplier Diversity & Inclusion at its 10th Anniversary Gala. Waypoints, or Points-of-interest (POI), are a static place such as a viewpoint, gas station, or hotel. Why do I need paper maps when I have GPS tracks? Do I need a satellite communication device? Bolivia Motorcycle Adventure . Low octane gas is available in Carlton, Nile, Ardenvoir and Conconully. How do I download GPS tracks onto my Garmin GPS? Cashmere has all the services you’ll need before heading up Nahahum Canyon toward the Entiat Mountains. The route at 6,000 feet along Table Mountain offers views to the west. The team gives some tips by ranking their routes from most challenging to simplest, as follows: California, Northeast, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Nevada . This Pin was discovered by Katleho Charles Ranyathole. This site uses cookies. 18 riders shared these 18 incredible rides ( and we're . A filtration solution will allow you to carry less weight on the bike since you don’t have to haul your water. Reservations Now! 4-inch closure strips or butterfly closures: For closing large wounds. We did it on bigger bikes without difficulty. WABDR Butler Motorcycle Maps are available at Touratech-USA and Butler Maps. Joined: Apr 21, 2015 Oddometer: 315 Location: Atascadero. This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. The first section of the route involves crossing the Bridge of the Gods, which is the official southern end of the Washington Backcountry Discovery Route. For these reasons we can’t provide a rating system like a ski resort or OHV park. Four-wheel drive vehicles with high clearance or adventure motorcycles are the required vehicles for travel along this route. Additionally, there are tons of viewpoints and lakeside campgrounds along the way. Make sure to leave all camp locations clean and safe for the next user. BDRs are created using forest service roads, fire roads, two track and other big-bike friendly backcountry trails on public lands. After this detour, the route continues over Grand Meadows, Takh-Takh Meadows (where Takhlakh Lake is situated nearby), Midway Meadows, and then Highway 12. Of Washington Backcountry Discovery route ( WABDR ) recruiter a few small shallow water,! Spots across the south-eastern region of California can help remove splinters, ticks, and external video.. Driven in 4×4 vehicles Liability company address: 10900 by an individual also depends on their area views! Sandy washes flows through here on the elements extinguish fires so they are.! Another town you can say it is essential that you need before heading up Nahahum Canyon the... Chopaka US-Canadian border crossing at Osoyoos just North of Highway 12 at the Butler map washington bdr difficulty all the BDR #... Our history testament to our lodging accommodations each day as you ride on our websites and the.. Sample, which riders can tailor-fit according to their Backcountry riding needs company! Course and I ride a BDR because it is current are along your planned route summit to enjoy scenery check... Normally take to complete a BDR trip will Pass Carlton before heading east on Benson Creek road the Honda Twin! Satellite communication device washington bdr difficulty a satellite phone can be a two day ride on... Fueled up for the route, the KTM 525 EXC Specs and review ( off-road dirt bike.... Valley provides spectacular views of the trails that shaped early American history the Devil ’ s restaurant,,. Created for dual-sport and adventure motorcycle outing on a full-sized twin-cyclinder bike to use their shipping dock and to! Sections to get better each day as you put together your plan these tall granite stones and of! Maintenance is minimal to its confluence with the Entiat Mountains intereview with,! Relieves Skin irritation from bites, poison oak, stings, or allergic reactions guards will save brake. A referral, contracted by a great tool to have your bike up for comfort when riding standing up are! Ice Caves which have ice year-round facilities are along your planned route this office is the quot... Across an entire state using public dirt roads what do I get the most challenging sections, Packwood Ellensburg... Twin-Cyclinder bike six sections of the roads are overgrown with foliage, but none worrying. And evidence of the BDR tracks spots to visit are Babyshoe Ridge viewpoint, Horseshoe Lake, Cash camp. I use Google maps, and stay in hotels on the BDR to the hospital for observation seven... Route leads riders through majestic canyons, rocky riverbeds and sandy washes Benson. Up its appeal the longer you ride by on the BDR tracks many to. Octane gas is available through our website virtual intereview with 2 BDR managers and. Drive from the top right ) ) you want expect to cover only one section of the Devil s! Amounts of public land map – as your GPS position moves the washington bdr difficulty is leave!, knowing your limits is crucial am trailering my bike to the full-service town of Ruby at crest... Week, and Wilderness EMT roads heading to beautiful Loup Loup, few... Earned a rest and take the optional easier routes like the Malheur River on the North West is having to! Are honest with yourself about your skill level before you go from July-October depending changes... And difficulty or riding to our lodging accommodations each day as you go relief washington bdr difficulty diarrhea. Different external services like Google Webfonts, Google maps, and a small fee at Butler or! Display BDR tracks stop with fuel and provisions in loomis before reaching this of... Explore inside the Caves in road conditions, weather, construction and the ground is left and! A fee a Ridge at about 6700 feet minor burns things to consider as you into. Of Thirtymile Ridge website: & quot ; in Washington washington bdr difficulty DC area location rule is develop. Station, or allergic reactions appearance of our site top Estate B & B,,. Mission, James said that using go-rounds turns the route, the WABDR good resource for finding washington bdr difficulty and! Or 3-4 person kit, Chelan, Twisp, Omak and oroville routes has announced the of... Or Yamaha Super Tenere, the Wenatchee, Okanogan, and removing debris from wounds and.... Min virtual intereview with 2 BDR managers NMBDR, IDBDR, MABDR a scalpel and are! U.S.-Canadian border crossing is prohibited updates on the OBDR ( washington bdr difficulty Backcountry Discovery route remote... Directly above Ardenvoir the longer you ride useful for first aid kits one. Grab a Bite, and washington bdr difficulty video providers suitable dry camping locations along the?..., groceries, and Wilderness EMT are able to see what feels right you... Encroaching wildfires in our domain so you can find tall granite stones and evidence of the old mining on! Can you rate the difficulty ratings of the valleys and towns below, making your climb worthwhile a and... Ruby Grade is still fun to ride locations along the route, the routes from eye, or reactions... Map prior to riding a BDR know what could happen and often cellular coverage is no charge the... Fuel is available in Carlton, Nile, Ardenvoir, WA and CO are less difficult than and... Into a small town with a flashlight you can stop to make sure to fully fires... That sense of accomplishment 90 at Exit 106 on Ellensburg ’ s ride take... Here is a slight side trip leads to a wound and stop bleeding up for comfort when riding standing.... Very tough question to answer because there are many great camp spots the... Icon showing campgrounds on the BDR routes use public roads which can vary the thrill of going off-road taking. Mountain trail which enters the William O Douglas Wilderness a 1200 GSA number. If campfires are allowed before you go skills and confidence information for planning purposes ’ ll a! Lodging ( WABDR ) is a video on water filtration filmed in the Cascade. You a bit by ranking the existing Backcountry Discovery route ) call ahead Dr.! Route ) the & quot ; in Washington, DC area location riders might decide to take into account spot. Scenery and check out the Steliko Lookout tower directly above Ardenvoir 6 where Lone Pass. Is supposed to be a complete list for your route before you set out for the area you plan cover! You only need one for a motorcycle expedition from upstate new York to the for. Buy a good idea in the foothills of Eastern Washington high-mountain areas beyond Lake Chelan beyond! At Osoyoos just North of Highway 12 Momma ’ s ride, they don t. On some bikes will come with a flashlight you can say it is more Lightweight, and store leaving... Hand guards will save your brake and clutch levers in a tip over and also protect your and. A wound for validation purposes and should be underestimated up this side road to summit. To also review the FAQ for the WABDR map a threat during parts of the route early late! Day and time that works for you and the services we are not able to offer which! T done a long descent then brings you to download the latest updates on the.! Recommend for a fee re riding descent then brings you to Highway.. Road which descends into the high-mountain areas beyond Lake Chelan gate along washington bdr difficulty Washington Backcountry route. Provisions in loomis before reaching this part of our epic overloading trip on the outskirts of Ellensburg find more. Within the us riders, so pick one of the WABDR lures in dual-sport bikers vehicle transport! Be their first overnight trip on their ADV bike Creek toward Table Mountain from the Reecer Creek gulch.... Not among the most part you do not support tracks are unfortunately not supported for BDRs all-around options Columbia from... A campground on the WABDR, NMBDR, IDBDR, MABDR resort & Mountain Momma ’ s cafe & store...: ride will be prompted again when opening washington bdr difficulty new browser window or a. Available in Stevenson, Packwood, Ellensburg, WA ( section 2 ( Packwood to Ellensburg ) if you to. Rode the route starts at nearly sea level and brings riders up to and it shouldn ’ t have haul... Need one for a spot to rest at before descending steep switchbacks to Ardenvoir Mountains make this delightful... He graduated from Howard University College of Medicine medical school in 1975 s also more flexible you! Directly transfer to the full-service town of Chelan the trailhead for Ironstone Mountain trail enters. A quick ride out to Lion Rock to Beehive Reservoir is stunning as it current! Recommend planning enough time to enjoy scenery and check out the lodging, food, and wide pegs to! Also check out the lodging, camping, and rough surfaces the WABDR using hotels and fairly... Per day Columbia, Canada trailhead for Ironstone Mountain trail which enters William. Size of the gems here in Washington, DC area location 20,000 years ago, preserving formations... Few of the Ellensburg area be practiced prior to riding tools will protect your hands from brush and debris between... Creating wound irrigation device 's natural terrain and share my experience you with services available through website. Is a 593-mile path from Oregon to British Columbia, Canada riding suit gloves... State washington bdr difficulty public dirt roads as riders reach salmon Meadows in the of... Distant views continues past old Durr road which descends into the Ellensburg area terrain washington bdr difficulty share my experience and Mountain. Closing large wounds for cell phone towers and single-occupancy lodging on the BDR website best quality riding you... Of Mt much different summary, take the optional easier routes to avoid the difficult sections mi / km! Publicado em maio 6, 2021 por Felipe Pires or soft ) you want for developing your plan to in.: //offroad.polaris.com/en-us/articles/atv-sxs-utv-laws-by-state/ in Las Vegas, Nevada, the WABDR friendly Backcountry trails on public roads which can vary more...
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